tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post9158191680659908811..comments2023-05-16T02:53:34.878-07:00Comments on The Catholic Working Mother: "Abolish Human Abortion" and Anti-CatholicismJoAnna Wahlundhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comBlogger111125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-36331405623900319022013-04-23T14:47:19.764-07:002013-04-23T14:47:19.764-07:00So sad that this ended. It was so good I really w...So sad that this ended. It was so good I really was hoping you would get an answer to your questions. Thank You it was really fun and I learned a lot. Keep up the Great Work! Blessings!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14777931426284791409noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-72979506456485319022013-01-25T17:49:50.920-07:002013-01-25T17:49:50.920-07:00Trent 1542, before Martin Luther's separation....Trent 1542, before Martin Luther's separation. So everyone Christian was Catholic. GodSpacehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597544020434134798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-71591251598956122592013-01-25T08:35:36.853-07:002013-01-25T08:35:36.853-07:00Debbie, thank you so much!!Debbie, thank you so much!!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-11517771482401055892013-01-24T21:29:02.112-07:002013-01-24T21:29:02.112-07:00Here you go, Leila! The first link is to the audio...Here you go, Leila! The first link is to the audio, and the second is to the transcript. The story is near the beginning, probably the first 10 minutes. The whole talk is about 30 minutes. I like having the audio and the transcript. He is a gifted storyteller, so hearing his vocal inflections really helps. But he packs so much into his talks that I was always thinking, "Wait, I want to write that down."<br /><br />http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism.htm<br /><br />http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism/ecumenism_transcription.htm<br /><br />Enjoy! Debbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06631290642334200748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-35553027580436842012013-01-24T09:38:10.520-07:002013-01-24T09:38:10.520-07:00Debbie, thank you! So interesting, and very clear!...Debbie, thank you! So interesting, and very clear! I would love, if possible, a link to Kreeft's story about time-travel to the early Church. :)Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-71216959355102130442013-01-24T08:19:45.533-07:002013-01-24T08:19:45.533-07:00Thank you for your input, Debbie. What you say is ...Thank you for your input, Debbie. What you say is fascinating, and makes me understand Rho's perspective much better. JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-30886901573163016582013-01-24T05:09:46.951-07:002013-01-24T05:09:46.951-07:00For further clarification it is our doctrine of Pu...For further clarification it is our doctrine of Purgatory that is most at odds with Calvinism. To explain it in our terms, for a Calvinist, all sin before the moment of being saved is mortal sin. All sin after the moment of salvation, would be venial. And since they believe that their sin is literally covered, there is nothing to be purged. We hold that our sins are covered in the same manner as we would say, "I gotcha covered." They believe in an actual covering to make it invisible. We hold that we are stripped away of our sins to our innocent nakedness, then covered in the Holy Garment. They hold that the Garment goes over our sins. <br /><br />To them, everything associated with how we deal with sin is at odds with (their interpretation) of the Gospel. Remember that they often use the terms justified and saved interchangeably. They believe they are justified and saved by faith through grace alone. Catholics teach we are justified by faith, and saved by grace through works and faith. Calvinists hold that "the works of the law" that don't save us are the same as "good works" after justification. We all agree that "the works of the law" don't save us. Circumcision does not open the gates of heaven. But they believe that good works do not either. <br /><br />For them, all work done before salvation is displeasing to God. The atheist pro-lifer who saves babies is still an affront to God. The Calvinist holds that the atheist's actions are an affront as well. We hold that the atheist cannot be saved by helping save the unborn, but that their work is still pleasing to God. It is only after justification by faith that their works have bearing on their salvation, according to the Catholic Church. And that shows why Rho is offended by Catholics saving the unborn. We do so, in his eyes in order to earn our way to heaven (because of his misinterpretation of the scriptural difference of works of the law and good works). Rho believes that our work in the pro-life movement is a problem because it displeases God. To a Calvinist, we are harming the pro-life cause through our "false doctrines" that are displeasing God. That is basically why he actually does want us gone from his cause. He honestly believes that if we get out, they will be blessed. Debbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06631290642334200748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-8691633799654435122013-01-24T03:42:04.883-07:002013-01-24T03:42:04.883-07:00Hi all! Great discussion, but it looks like it has...Hi all! Great discussion, but it looks like it has died down a bit. For some extra reference points, Dr. Peter Kreeft is a former Calvinist and he often discusses the intellectual conversations he had as a Calvinist. While some Calvinist do shy from intellectual discussions, thy do so because it is a very intellectually based belief system. One can not be uneducated and Calvinist, if one is a true Calvinist. <br /><br />The other point is that Catholics hold to pre-destination. Calvinists believe in double pre-destination. The former is the belief that God knows your final fate in the moment He creates you. The latter belief is that He knows it and there is nothing you can do to change that path at any time.<br /><br />Since most Calvinists, if not all, hold to once save always saved, doctrine, it is not much use to talk about sin with them. The entire concept of OSAS is predicated in the idea that after actual physical salvation takes place, no sin counts against you. None. They will try not to sin because of their new heart, but no sin can be counted against them, so if they do sin, there is nothing to be done about it. The concept of falling away is impossible if one holds to OSAS. The only possibility is that the person was never saved to begin with.<br /><br />Another point from Dr. Kreeft is that Calvinists are unfamiliar with the Early Church Fathers. And if they are familiar, they are discounted as the earliest ones who were NOT following Scripture. But it was studying the Early Church Fathers that helped Dr. Kreeft in his conversion. (He has a funny story about shocking his Calvinist teachers with a question about time travel to the early Church.) Calvinists honestly do read into Scripture that the early Church was just a loosely bound group of local-based churches who just compared notes (letters) on what the other was teaching. <br /><br />Finally, to a Calvinist the question of "what is the Gospel?" is absurd. To a Calvinist the Gospel is the New Testament. Period. All of it. And only it. The lines in Scripture that "Jesus taught more but we cannot contain it all" means that anything outside of the Written Word is what we would call a discipline. For a good example, some Calvinists struggle with the word "Trinity." They acknowledge that the concept is Scriptural, but not the word. They will use the word as a descriptor, but you would likely never hear a Calvinist address God as Holy Trinity. They could, probably, but it would cause raised eyebrows sinse the word itself is not in Scripture. (Though to be clear the same problem does not exist for their non-belief of Purgatory. They don't hold that even the concept is in Scripture.)<br /><br />The website, Scripture Catholic, could be helpful to Rho's understanding at some later date, but sadly not yet. Rho is still at a point of believing that his thoughts and feelings can correctly understand and discern the difference between the Holy Spirit and demonic influence. Yes, as some of you rightly note, it is a problem of authority for him, but he has not yet had a crisis of conscience yet on that. It can take a very long time for that to happen. Older converts to the Church often note that they spent a lot of time centered on their own thoughts and didn't really struggle with the idea of who was in charge. The Holy Spirit was in charge, and they were going to follow Him. That was enough. They honestly believed that discernment of spirit was relatively easy. <br /><br />Prayers for a fruitful discussion. I won't be taking part, but I wanted to offer some insight for understanding Rho's perspective. I will be reading. It is fascinating!Debbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06631290642334200748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-18597597935016043722013-01-18T22:55:33.759-07:002013-01-18T22:55:33.759-07:00Just a comment from a lurker- I find this whole di...Just a comment from a lurker- I find this whole discussion so fascinating. On the one hand is the challenge to defend the position, to define it...on the other hand is a reluctance to do so to say that a person should automatically know. I've never seen this sort of dialogue before. But then I usually deal with those of the evangelical persuasion. They can tell their beliefs directly and then site Biblical references. It's the interpretation differences.<br /><br />I suppose if R is not willing to define what the Gospel is maybe he'd be willing to explain some basic beliefs of his....Deltaflutehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489950329698009256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-17895198126844502452013-01-18T14:45:45.803-07:002013-01-18T14:45:45.803-07:00Ok Rhology. You've convinced me.
"Repent...Ok Rhology. You've convinced me.<br /><br />"Repent of ALL of your sin, including being a member of an apostate church like Rome. Come out. Believe the Gospel. Bear fruit in keeping with repentance by joining a church that believes and teaches the true Gospel unashamedly. "<br /><br />I've repented of ALL my sins and abhor what is evil. <br />I believe Jesus came to save me and I choose to love HIM and serve HIM no matter the costs.<br />I just don't know how to choose a church.....<br />How do I know the church is teaching the true Gospel unashamedly?<br />What definition of the Gospel should I use to verify that the church is teaching the true Gospel? What should I fall back on when I am confused?<br /><br />In a few weeks, I will have some visitors come knocking at my door. They quoted from Revelation and the Genesis. They seemed to know their Bible very well and asked if I wanted to know the truth. The were telling me that there is a Mother God... Should I go listen to them? <br /><br />Then The Witnesses come a few weeks later. They are very convincing too.<br /><br />There is a Presbyterian up the street, a Charisma church a few blocks down, a Non-denominational Church, another church a few blocks further that friends have been telling me is a very good church and it seems very popular. There is another service in the community hall, I don't know if it is a denominational church or just the pastor saying a service. There was also a Reform Orthodox Church that started because they wanted to get back to the Bible and felt that the Reformed church strayed from the Bible. I have their pamphlet and it said they started in 1986. There is also a Catholic Church nearby too. They have too service, one which says that they are the Eritrean community. I don't know how to choose another church.<br /><br />How should I choose which church to go to? <br />Should I move to where you live since you know which church is teaching the Gospel? It seems all these churches are saying they are teaching the Gospel. How do I know which one is right? How should I judge the churches? <br />How do I know I am correctly listening to the Holy Spirit about which church I should go to?<br />How do I know they are interpreting the Scriptures correctly?<br />With the Catholic church I can read their documents. If a priest says something contrary to their documents I know the priest is not following the Magisterial and I shouldn't attend that parish if I want to learn about RRC. <br /><br />Chantalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00184616275088281652noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-91411680713551467442013-01-18T14:43:24.918-07:002013-01-18T14:43:24.918-07:00Ladies, you make good points, which is why I only ...Ladies, you make good points, which is why I only made suggestions as to the best way to proceed. <br /><br />Anne Marie, I carefully qualified my statement there, as I expected it could be construed as saying "don't show that you are Catholic." I myself have prayed the rosary many many times outside abortion clinics, even with Protestant brothers and sisters also there outside the clinic doing their own prayers and counseling.<br /><br />So we don't hide anything, but prudence would indicate we also don't need to shove specifically Catholic devotions in the faces of pro-life Protestants. They can and do see us praying together. Certainly there's a place to argue for Catholicism vs. Protestantism (like on Joanna's blog here!), but it need not be out on the front lines of an abortion clinic. That's all I meant. Hope it helps.Devin Rosehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13706894435441471620noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-26006470892938943692013-01-18T14:40:28.322-07:002013-01-18T14:40:28.322-07:00One other question I have, that I have been asking...One other question I have, that I have been asking for a long time with no answer, is this: Can you show me the model of church in the New Testament that has folks starting up their own churches and appointing themselves as leaders without the authority and permission of the Apostles or their successors? Chapter and verse, please. Thanks!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-42114523483500273962013-01-18T14:32:42.909-07:002013-01-18T14:32:42.909-07:00Sorry, I can't find it here, but somewhere, R,...Sorry, I can't find it here, but somewhere, R, you said that a peasant could find the correctly teaching Bible teacher "the same way that a peasant could find the correctly teaching priest" or words to that effect. <br /><br />That is really not helpful.<br /><br />So, I'm going to ask you to elaborate on that answer, or revisit the question from different angles, and if you could take one or more:<br /><br />1) Okay, so then what <i>is</i> that way?<br /><br />2) A peasant would know or learn that a priest is ordained and consecrated by a bishop -- who is a successor to an Apostle. A Protestant Bible teacher would <i>not</i> be a bishop who was anointed by another bishop who was anointed by another bishop, all the way back to an Apostle, correct? There is a very direct and tangible connection to the Apostles in Catholicism that is simply not there in Protestantism. So, please clarify how your answer could mean anything? I am confused by it.<br /><br />3) Forget that the "error" of Roman Catholicism exists. Pretend there is only Protestantism. Your Christian faith should not be dependent on Catholicism, correct? So, pretend there is no Catholic Church (what a great world that would be, right?), and answer my question: How would an illiterate peasant know which Bible teacher is teaching the true Gospel?<br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br />Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-13062307225003124852013-01-18T14:10:27.742-07:002013-01-18T14:10:27.742-07:00And we can leave aside certain theological disagre...And we can leave aside certain theological disagreements to do so, even, for the sake of not putting up obstacles, avoid doing certain peculiarly Catholic things during common events--some of the time anyway. <br /><br />Peculiarly Catholic things? Do you mean the rosary? The rosary is our strongest weapon after the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Divine Office. Are we willing to hide our weapons against Abortion for political correctness? To avoid praying the rosary in public because our separated brethren might be offended seems cowardly at best.Anne Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02823788944888712886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-29093025264964498322013-01-18T13:19:07.780-07:002013-01-18T13:19:07.780-07:00*you meaning Rhology, not Leila.*you meaning Rhology, not Leila.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-6132121175835066502013-01-18T13:17:49.462-07:002013-01-18T13:17:49.462-07:00Here's my question. If Calvinism holds that ou...<i>Here's my question. If Calvinism holds that our fates are predestined, and nothing we do or say can change our destiny, then why are you dialoguing at all, R? What on earth would be the point?-Leila </i><br /><br />And what a buzz kill.<br /><br />If we're predestined to reject Calvinism, what good does it do to tell Roman Catholics how wrong we are, and how we ought to repent, when from moment # 1, we were destined to reject all you had to say? <br /><br />Turning off intellect and will. Well, there goes 2/3's of the whole person. <br />Why did God give those faculties again...?<br /><br />Oh, and - just a catch, from Titus 2:11- "the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men." All, not a few, not a predetermined amount. His grace is sufficient for *all*.Nubbyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15972118374098863290noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-38432406052557909962013-01-18T13:11:34.927-07:002013-01-18T13:11:34.927-07:00Hi Rhology,
I just read Romans 8 and I don't ...Hi Rhology,<br /><br />I just read Romans 8 and I don't see the word "unregenerate" in either the NIV or the KJV. Are you using a different translation?JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-33019275351128629402013-01-18T13:09:05.050-07:002013-01-18T13:09:05.050-07:00Also, Rhology, I wrote this blog post because I am...Also, Rhology, I wrote this blog post because I am tired of being "hated on" by other pro-lifers just for being Catholic. I felt that your letter, telling me that I am complicit in spreading a false gospel and am going to hell, was a clear example of being "hated on." <br /><br />Why is it okay for you to hate on Catholics, but not the other way around? Shouldn't we all strive not to hate on one another, but treat each other with love and respect as sisters and brothers in Christ Jesus?JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-5704174064147860832013-01-18T13:07:12.783-07:002013-01-18T13:07:12.783-07:00Catholics love the Gospel and are evangelical, too...Catholics love the Gospel and are evangelical, too. That's why you get "hated" on (your perception, but not reality, in my opinion) when you tell Catholics that we are not true Christians, are hell-bound, etc. <br /><br />Would you like being told that you are a hell-bound heathen, even though you sincerely love Jesus Christ and strive to follow His teachings to the best of your ability? If not, why do you think Catholics should like it?JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-42713007820924558342013-01-18T13:05:21.957-07:002013-01-18T13:05:21.957-07:00"...b/c we dare love the Gospel…"
Sorry..."...b/c we dare love the Gospel…"<br /><br />Sorry to repeat the sentiments of everyone here, but please define "the Gospel". Thanks!Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-78827996823993243342013-01-18T12:51:22.327-07:002013-01-18T12:51:22.327-07:00Hi Devin,
The post in my OP (from Pro-Life Rocks!...Hi Devin,<br /><br />The post in my OP (from Pro-Life Rocks!) was actually the last in a long line of blatantly anti-Catholic postings (but the one in my OP was the first one I saw, and thus the only one for which I had a screenshot.<br /><br />The other postings talked about how Catholics worship Mary and that's why the rosary was ineffective to combat abortion, etc. etc. You might find them if you searched the page; I'm not sure if they were deleted or not. <br /><br />I agree that we should unite to abolish abortion, and compromise in certain ways when it comes to doing so. However, I don't believe that Rhology's open letter was a charitable response to the Catholics who are working along side him to abolish abortion. JoAnna Wahlundhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09942928659520676271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-35651429929696353862013-01-18T12:50:50.705-07:002013-01-18T12:50:50.705-07:00Rhology, if you want to argue, we can always go to...<i>Rhology, if you want to argue, we can always go to Triablogue or Called to Communion and argue there.</i><br /><br />We would love it, as a matter of fact, if RCs would stop hating on us abolitionists b/c we dare love the Gospel and dare be evangelical. That's why we wrote the open letter.<br />But if RCs want to rip us for being anti-Catholic just b/c we are evangelical, that's something else. Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-68390518178230102032013-01-18T12:49:17.017-07:002013-01-18T12:49:17.017-07:00Devin Rose said:
(Hi, Rhology.)
Hello! :-)Devin Rose said:<br /><i>(Hi, Rhology.)</i><br /><br />Hello! :-)Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-91919085093365011952013-01-18T12:46:25.718-07:002013-01-18T12:46:25.718-07:00LOL, you are right Devin, but I think (correct me ...LOL, you are right Devin, but I think (correct me if I am wrong JoAnna) that JoAnna invited the discussion here and is okay with it! I don't have any illusion that we will convert Rhology to the Church, but I think it's already been very instructive. I have learned more about Calvinism and really enjoyed Stacy and Calah's comments. And the lurkers are always edified by seeing both sides presented, no?Leila@LittleCatholicBubblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09357573787143230160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7546639772211374853.post-68136961631159597682013-01-18T12:44:35.125-07:002013-01-18T12:44:35.125-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Mandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01347616073655350336noreply@blogger.com